I shame the matriarchy

Amen to that!

That whole "if it wasn't for psych meds I wouldn't be here" is how I still feel about my episode back in August/September. For that matter, the same goes for my last girlfriend, whom I supported through a severe episode of bipolar disorder the year before.

Personally, I'm a strong resister of using psych meds if at all possible, but the fact of the matter is, sometimes they are just necessary or the mind will just tear itself to bits. And realising that is what saved me from suicide.

I think it's fair to describe psych meds as a crutch. But then, when someone's got a broken leg, THEY GET TO USE A CRUTCH! Likewise, when someone's got a broken brainchemical, they get to use psych meds!

And I speak as someone with at least one foot firmly in the Romantic camp, of indulging in emotions. So I have some baseline for the difference between healthy and unhealthy depression.
 

Thank you for saying this.


This whole series of exchanges is really bumming me the hell out, but your post cheers up me a bit.
 

What's interesting is that my opinions are in the minority and you all are reacting as though I'm in the majority, oppressing you or something.

No, take a look at the power structures that be, follow the money as it were. And then tell me to STFU.

Maybe we'd have something to argue about if you didn't have the support of Big Pharma, the APA, and a whole lot of drug-loving people. But as it stands, my voice is the one being squashed.
 

so, so, squashed...

it's like you're not even talking anymore...like someone who perished from suicide.

actually....wait. your post showed up just fine, and it's just as asinine as before.

med didn't work for me either...hurt me pretty bad. but i'm not petty enough to claim that that makes me a better person.
 

"I don't know why I was one of the lucky ones, or why the meds that worked for me drive others even further into despair."

AP, I think a lot of people are helped by meds, you're not in the minority of folks who take meds in that regard. For more than half the population, there's an AD that will help if the person meets the symptom profile.

I think the reason the bad news spreads wider than the good is that one is more likely to be interested in talking about something if it's turbulent. I spent about 7 months on meds. One on zoloft, which I hated, and six on lexapro, which worked great. I spent a bunch of time IRL online whining to various folks about zoloft, and not much time talking about how nicely lexapro worked. Because by that time, I had moved on to other things and was not as caught up in the topic. I'm sure this is a fairly frequent occurrence.

And as to crutches -- everyone has them. Some are just more open about it.

Bottom line, love the post.
 

What's interesting is that my opinions are in the minority and you all are reacting as though I'm in the majority, oppressing you or something.

I find attitudes that imply people who seek medical attention for depression are somehow unenlightened, politically
or socially blind, blissfully ignorant, seeking eternal undeserved happiness or just lacking the proper perspective on diet and exercise to be oppressive, yes.

are you, personally, oppressing me, personally? maybe you don't mean to. but I feel a little disapproved-of, politically speaking, socially speaking - as though people like me are Not Your Kind Of People because we have psych issues. Admittedly, that could be because I'm wicked hypersensitive. (what nutritional interventions do you recommend for ameliorating wicked hypersensitivity? ;)

No, take a look at the power structures that be, follow the money as it were. And then tell me to STFU.

I don't really want to tell you to shut the fuck up. That's a bit harsh. I do wish you'd listen to people who are giving your their different perspectives.

(as to what some others have said to you or about you - they're all adults, they're all responsible for their own words as I am for mine.)

Maybe we'd have something to argue about if you didn't have the support of Big Pharma, the APA, and a whole lot of drug-loving people. But as it stands, my voice is the one being squashed.

well, I am sorry you feel squashed. I can tell that you are really really sincere in your beliefs, and I know you're not setting out to hurt and inflame and insult, but are really trying to help us all before it's too late. I get that.

but here - do you mean I, personally,have the support of Big Pharma, the APA, all the drug-loving people?

I don't feel that I do...if I did, I'd have better real estate, certainly. Big Pharma, the APA, all the drug-loving people don't give a shit about me.

duh.

do you really think I don't get that? I get the sense that you think I'm a total dolt for drinking the Big Pharma kool-aid - which I don't. I don't think Modern Medicine has all the answers,or deserves to be slavishly worshipped, or earns its obscene amount of funding derived from the exploitation of all sorts of living things.

but I was not about to turn down a lifeline just because the people holding it were politically or karmically "dirty".

it was, for a time, meds or death - and Big Pharma be damned. you have given me no reason to regret my decision. (but I did like your potato scramble recipe.)

and I know you say, loud and clear, "I don't care what you people do with your bodies." but your disdain for folks who choose this path is palpable in every word you type on the subject.

I think (not to speak for the Depression Community) we'd all like to see a little less disdain and a little more compassion.

But I can't really tell you how to feel or what to do.

and again, I'm sorry I helped you feel squashed.
 

I mean, it's not like I had much of any revolutionary fire in the belly prior to my experience with psychiatry.

I was too dead-inside to really be an effective agent for change.

it's not like the meds dampened any sort of wild world-changing creativity. if anything, now that I'm through the worst of the depression, I am more receptive to ideas that would possibly lead to positive, progressive change.

also - thanks for the kind words, y'all. :)
 

med didn't work for me either...hurt me pretty bad. but i'm not petty enough to claim that that makes me a better person.

aw,sly. I know this discussion is hard for you.

are you okay?
 

What? You're not all blissed out and too content to tie your own shoes (I mean, before Wolfgang invaded your personal space)?
I hear you and second that. I, too, would be dead (by my own hand), and was nearly there when SD dragged me into the doctor, who took one look and said "you need a psychiatrist" and sent me to The Good Dr. H., who has held my hand and fed me pills Lo! these 14 years, and here I am, productive and useful and not the teeniest bit blissed out. Pills for everyone? By no means. If Positive Thinking and vitamin B6 make you happy, more power to you, but I needed Big Guns for what ailed me.
 

Same here, AP. If it weren't for SSRIs? I have no doubt I wouldn't have made it through my early 20s. These "debates" piss me off more than almost anything. Until someone has lived in my skin, experienced the firings of my synapses, and so on and so forth, SHUT THE FUCK UP about what I should or shouldn't do. This is as offensive and ridiculous as me telling someone they shouldn't be on meds for diabetes, asthma, heart trouble, or whatever else.
 

it's not the "natural is better for you" part. I mean, I can see where for many conditions a non-pharmaceutical intervention can really help.

for example, my dad kept diabetes at bay by eating nothing but...well, whatever he ate, for years and years. and I believe Elaine when she says "pharmaceuticals didn't help but these behavior and nutritional modifications did". I mean, she is the expert on her own brain. just like I am the expert on mine, you're the expert on yours, etc.

it's the "depression isn't an illness/do your research/don't believe the hype" part that really starts to chew on the back of my brain.

you know, it gives me the impression that, in her head, most folks who are struggling with depression are mindless sheep under the spell of Big Pharma, who refuse to do our own research, who are EAGER and WILLING to swallow whatever is fed to us, who are just lining up with our mouths (and pockets) open at the front door of Pfizer every day at 11:00.

which has never been the case for me, nor for anyone I know who is wrestling with depression.

I did my damn research, thanks. meds weren't my first choice. but as I was already doing everything else on her list, what the hell was I supposed to do?
 

it's the "depression isn't an illness/do your research/don't believe the hype" part that really starts to chew on the back of my brain.

EXACTLY.

If, for example, a change in diet helps someone manage their depression, or whatever other condition they may have? Awesome! That is great for them. And I can't fathom telling them they shouldn't do what works for them.
 

and she swears up, down and sideways that she NEVER SAID SHE WAS TELLING ANYONE WHAT TO DO! NEVER SAID SHE WAS TELLING ANYONE WHAT NOT TO DO!

and maybe not in so many words - but the implication is clear to me.

again, maybe my opinion is the result of wicked hypersensitivity (caused by...what? I don't know...food sensitivity? not enough sun? my own byzantine menagerie of personal rage? who knows...). but that's how I read her. And I went back and checked, and corrected for my own headcake, and came up with the same result.
 

Oh, AP, you can't possibly understand, you see, with your hormonally addled pregnant mind. How could anyone with Baby On The Brain follow along, hm? Go knit something.

*mmmWAH*
 

I never said I was a better person. You're reading between the lines if you think that. I never, ever said it.

Instead of reading between the lines, please read the actual lines and DON'T infer anything. Try to read my words as though you didn't already hate me.

You know, it just doesn't matter what the hell I say. If my opinion is in the minority, you will all attack me.
 

Try to read my words as though you didn't already hate me.

yeow!

Elaine, I am so sorry if I gave you the impression that I hate you.

I'm frustrated and angry about what you said. but I should have been more careful about my words, so that you would not have inferred from them that I hate you.

I am so sorry.

I feel insulted by some of the things you said, but I also understand that you probably didn't mean any personal insult. I thought I made that clear, but apparently not.

I can't agree with you - nor can I just stop talking about my experiences - but what can I do to convince you that my post (and comments, wherever they may be) don't come from a place of full-on HATE?
 

knit THIS, rootie!

mWAH back!
 

Been trying to decide whether to say anything or not. (To say nothing of the timing, D'oh!)

There WAS a time when I knew ap well enough to be in the position of calling her on her shit, but many things have changed and years have intervened. Those years are precisely what is in question here.

She knows some of my biases on this one.

But I gotta say, on this one, ap, there is a distinct possibility there is a PORTION of shit here you need calling on.

I haven't sludged through the elsewhere discussions. I'm merely commenting on what you wrote here and your history that I'm familiar with.

(As an aside for other readers who don't know and aren't going to know the full back story here, don't mistake this for the all too common false equation- 'pills= science, science is bad' bullshit. No fluffy granola go au natural argument in this.)
 

The beauty of blog-writing is that one can voice a controversial opinion and make it sound like fact, and another one can call them out on it, and all sorts of feelings can be wounded and NO ONE has to back up anything they say with statistics provided by the Evil Patriarchal Phamaceutical companies! You can just say whatever you want! But, if you're going to do that, you need to be prepared for someone else to get pissed about it. At the end of the day, everyone can walk away, reputation intact.
 

But I gotta say, on this one, ap, there is a distinct possibility there is a PORTION of shit here you need calling on.

be my guest. I assume that doesn't mean you hate me. :)

it has occurred to me over the past coupla days that this bit here:
I mean, it's not like I had much of any revolutionary fire in the belly prior to my experience with psychiatry.
may not be entirely true, upon further reflection. I activist-ed around pretty heavily for a couple years, which existence that statement rather effectively erased. and that erasing that I did was wrong.

how does that fit with my argument that meds helped me? I don't know. maybe it doesn't. but it was inaccurate and I feel the need to correct it.

so, what portion of my shit did you have in mind?
 

As you know, time, for me, is a bit tight at the moment.

This probably isn't something we need to detail all over the net, unless of course, you feel some great need to.

It is something you and I could get to soon enough, if you really want to know.

That said, yes, I am glad to see you went back and at least tried to rectify that particular bit, it wasn't the primary thing(s) I was alluding to, but it was certainly on the list.

Short version is yes there is a huge amount of stigma in this culture aimed directly at those willing to publicly acknowledge personal vulnerabilities often bulked together as 'mental illnesses', and no that's not a good thing.

(But part of the unstated issue here is that while only some admit such in public, and yes bear undue stigma for such, a vast portion of the American population has direct experience with such- pills, diagnoses, inpatient experiences, therapy etc. Far from some tiny minority position, vast numbers of people, as you can plainly see even in comment threads, womyn in particular, have some direct personal experience with such. This begins to lead into not 'who here has experience with such, but is there anyone here who HASN'T!' What does that say about how common and everyday such has become? Far from some 'last resort' in this culture, it's become everyday.

Now back to you and your piece in particular;)

BUT, I think there's a LOT more to your situation, you getting both INTO and OUT OF said situation, than the particular narrative you're positing here, and on other blogs, now that I've gone and looked at the rest of the discussion.

Unfortunately, such drastic rewrite of personal history, and particular narrative are not in isolation here, they're read by others. I'm not willing to drag the particulars out (unless you REALLY want to go there, publicly), but well, you're leaving out an awful lot of other factors in this abridged version.

No, I certainly do not "hate" you, (smileys being neither here nor there, and yes, I understand how "hate" is relating to other sub-conversations), but you're either adding certain "personal testimony enhancements" that make for a better and more succinct narrative (which 'just happens' to line up with certain cultural expectations) or you've genuinely lost track of some of the details of the lead in, and perhaps even lead out to said story.

Further, even in your own instance, I think there was a lot more to you getting out of that particular situation than 'therapy and drugs' and giving such the typical American 'if not for X, my salvation, I would be dead' is more than merely oversimplification.

To then not only not understand the ways in which your narrative buttresses exiting power structures, but also either turning a blind eye, or more realistically, perhaps being unaware of the longstanding feminist entanglement with and critiques of the way such are used as control mechanisms societally, insisting that your 'personal' is just that, singular, and not one thread in a much larger whole, seems either a blind spot, or an oversight worthy of perhaps at least a bit of reflection.

That's pretty much about as far as I'm willing to go in such a public forum. You genuinely want my opinion on such, you'll just have to wait a bit until it can be done more privately.
 

Who the hell does this Habu person think they are? If someone tried to pick me apart in such a superior-sounding manner, I'd be pretty pissed.
 

well, I do not mind a gentle nudge in the direction of truth, if such is necessary.

I'm only human, after all.

I think I may be as guilty as I appear, upon further review. it happens.

who habu thinks she is? I hope she thinks she's someone who is near and dear to me, and if anyone is entitled to do the necessary gentle nudging, it's her.

it's she? any grammar experts in the house?

It's okay, Amber. I don't think Habu is trying to be anything but a good friend. as you are, clearly. it's all good.
 

Heh.

I'm actually being as circumspect as possible considering the nature of all this.

That said, if ap wants to explain who I am, in relation to her, and the particular portion of her life she's discussing here, she's welcome to do so, or not.
 

I should also mention-

It's not a matter of 'entitled', it's 'qualified', and I suppose you could say in the details of this, I am, well, for good or ill, uniquely qualified.

And yes, sometimes calling a friend on her shit can be an important thing to do, but only in the context of a pre-existing structure wherein such has been part of what it is 'we' do- for each other, by the way.
 

Habu:

While you may be qualified to speak about AP's specific experience and testimony, I don't think you can negate the force of her argument by it, when it reflects the experience of other people as well. Like it or not, psych meds have saved my life, and I am extremely grateful for that.

And I think your comment about "To then not only not understand the ways in which your narrative buttresses existing power structures..." is uncalled for, unless you can demonstrate how it works, because that really does speak not only to AP's narrative, but to mine, and that of a lot of other people who feel that they would not still be in this world if it were not for psych meds.

By all means say that AP has been presenting a story in such a way as to make her point clearer, and that you feel this is dishonest - but please be aware that some of your remarks do impact on others (in the way that you claim that AP's post impacts on others).
 

Snowdropexplodes-

I actually wrote a different piece addressing you, but then decided you simply don't/can't know enough of the back story on all this to even understand precisely what it was I was saying to ap in that paragraph.

You can project your own experiences etc onto it, and get as offended as you like, but it really wasn't pertinent.

I was speaking to ap, about what she said here.

As for meds, therapy, etc, people's milage differs. If YOU feel it 'saved your life' well whatever, (any opinion I might possibly have on that would be irrelevant, it's a non-sequitor, not pertinent to this conversation, and furthermore, obviously I don't know squat about your life.) Certainly plenty of people will be glad to join that chorus.

In ap's case, attributing the significance to the meds, therapy, etc when MANY other factors were in play there was in my opinion (and like it or not, it's mine) not merely an oversimplification, it was outright denial of her own history.

There are, in short far more complex reasons that merely pills and therapy that ap was not, to use her terminology "a line item statistic on someone's Domestic Violence Report."

Ascribing such totality of salvation after a sort to the pills, again to quote ap "I owe it all to the Happy Pills." Is a denial of her own history. It's bullshit. And it denies not only how she got out, but also the process by which she got in and for a period of time stayed in.

Nor do you, or pretty much anyone else here understand how I use the term "testimony" ("personal testimony enhancements", to be specific.)

You'd have to know me and understand what I mean by such to understand that I'm not referring to genuine history at all by using such a term.

I would NEVER refer to what she wrote here as straight faced, fact of the matter "testimony". If anything, I use "pte" more as a term of how people reinvent their own histories and show contempt for the realities of their own lives- usually in service to broader social movements' goals.

To the extent I will address you- does it matter when a self described feminist (what I firmly believe falsely) attributes her own escape from an abusive relationship to some pills and therapy- editing out other reasons and means by which she ultimately got out, as well as all the other factors which were part of why she was even there?

I believe, speaking as a Radical Feminist myself it does.

For one thing, it's a product endorsement the likes of which money couldn't buy.

Does that "butress existing power structures"? Of course it does.

Whereas many feminist voices have been critical or questioning of the tools and tactics used in psychiatry, voices like ap's (which again, I believe is giving vastly undue weight in her endorsement of such, considering the other factors that I know from her own words were parts of all of this) work, whether she likes it or not to at minimum 'balance out, or neutralize' other feminist criticisms.

To say nothing of how her oversimplified story sets up false equations like this-

'Without X I'd be dead now' thus anyone who questions X or disagrees apparently has no problem with ap being dead.

Which is crap.

It builds a false (and unfair/beyond the realm of questioning) 'unquestionability'- particularly in a realm where the reality is, personal experiences vary greatly.

Why do I say there were other factors and to ascribe such purely to meds, etc is well, 'shit'? Well, there's a lot more to this story. She knows it, and I know it, and without dragging it all out here, you're just going to have to settle for that.

I am NOT going to pull quotes from her personal e-mails to me and put them here. Period.
 

aak!
Kristin = me Heidi. what's wrong with my computer?
sorry for the ambiguity.
 

Habu:

It sounds to me like you're talking about butterfly-wing effects here. In my own experience, as in many others', probably everyone's, including AP's, there are more than one factor involved in what prevented a disaster. However, I think it is fair to say that my survival was contingent upon my taking the pills. I am willing to accept that, while there may have been many other factors in AP's life upon which her survival was also contingent, that the pills and therapy also played some crucial role in it (even if that role might seem to you a small one). I accept it when you say that there were lots of other things that have been edited out of the account she gave here, I am just saying that it doesn't necessarily mean that her conclusion, "the drugs saved my life" is false.

As someone who identifies as feminist, I think your argument about the "existing power structures" is wrong.

As I said in my opening post, using psych meds to get you through a major mental health crisis (such as severe depression) is no different from using crutches to overcome the problem of having a broken leg or sprained ankle. Would you then blame a broken-legged person for saying that having crutches enabled them to move around? And wouldn't you also accept that saying there should be no crutches in the world, is saying that broken-legged people should not be able to move about? Admittedly, maybe someone with a sprained ankle would have a little mobility, but a crutch or two certainly makes all the difference to that person. None of which has anything to do with propping up the power of Big Industry crutch-making people.

Your point about criticising psychiatric methods is noted; however, it is possible to say that a tool has done some good, and yet say also that it is harmful or can be improved upon. For instance, the internal combustion engine is a useful tool. it also does harm. It also can be improved upon. It is possible to say, "without the internal combustion engine, I would not have got to hospital in time and I would be dead" while at the same time arguing that alternative methods of motive power are required, or that the internal combustion engine should be made much more efficient.
 

fwiw - upon further review, I think habu is right, or at least (for those of us who prefer to see things on a continuum), righter than she is wrong.

makes me wonder why I said what I said.

I owe Elaine an apology, certainly, for letting rhetoric get in the way of my own truth. and an apology to Habu, for reasons complex in their simplicity...

On the other flipper, regret and embarrassment are at least as much a part of the genuine human experience as any other emotion. I screwed up and I'm sorry, and such is part of being human, screwing up and being sorry.

On the other other flipper, I have to wonder why I had such a strong reaction to it all that I went so far afield of my own truth to make my point.

If I keep at this, I'll run out of flippers. suffice it to say I am glad that habu commented - it allowed me to re-think my post and see things more clearly.

another opportunity for growth...
 

Snowdropexplodes-

You didn't understand me, and probably won't. Continuing down this is unproductive.

I'm not talking about 'butterfly effect', I'm referring to contradictory earlier explanations that counter-indicated ap's blog post, etc.

You and I appear to have some fundamental disagreements, and some where you're just looking past what I wrote and assuming I'm actually taking ANY position on meds in these posts, I'm not. If anything, I've said they're a mixed bag- good for some, bad for others.

That's all the time I have for.

and ap-

I can't decide whether you're coming around to this out of conflict avoidance in prelude to a certain upcoming event, or whether you've really thought this through and genuinely believe that on this I was ultimately "righter than (she is) wrong".

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

Though I too, skritch my head and wonder why you wrote what you wrote.

In any case, congrats on the new growth :-)

(That's all I've got time for tonight- and it's a good thing.)
 

Wow. A lot of opinions.

I think some people's depression represents issues for them that they need to work through. For others, the problem is basically chemical.

There are some issues that if people do not work through they will never have a deep sense of meaningfulness and connection. Issues are really the problem for them. The mood that comes from not dealing with important issues is a sign that points to a particular need for help and introspection.
 

Thanks for your positive post. My mother and younger brother are both on prozac and every day I am grateful to still have them.
 

I've decided to blog about this myself, if I can make any sense, and I will be linking you, I hope.

Love ya, AntiP.
 

Maybe I'm oversimplifying here, but I still think Elaine is just not grasping the difference between "having a bad day/week/month" and clinical depression. It's the idea that people on SSRIs etc walk around all buzzed up and full of the joys of spring that gives her away. I've never taken an anti-depressant, and I'm all for healthy living and vitamins and blah blah (got rid of my own hypoglaecemia that way), but I've also seen enough people go on psych meds and actually be able to function again to realise that there's something more than the placebo effect going on there.


Also the romanticising of depression is annoying. I've been depressed. There's nothing romantic or revolutionary about it. It sucks. If you're lucky it goes away. If it doesn't then you take the damn pills. End of story.
 

Though I too, skritch my head and wonder why you wrote what you wrote.

yeah, that's a puzzle.

why did I have such a visceral, dramatic reaction to what Elaine wrote in the first place? so much so that I lost sight of some key important details of my own life?

why was Making My Point so important to me? it usually isn't.

I mean - I can't un-post, and pretend like I never said anything. that's cheating. BUT this post is not really 100% completely true to my life.

so...now what?
 

Oh for fuck's sakes people
meds work for some people. Au natural works for others. There are people for whom nothign works. But I am completely fuckign annoyed with teh fact that some people are so hard trying to define their ow experiences as universal and somethign everyone else should adhere to or else.
AP was referring to something that works for her. Seriously, be happy for her or GTFO.

I'm not a big fan of big pharma and having worked in a mental health setting ( and gotten fired from it when I actually came down with depression, but that is another story), I should be wary of pills and the generally used methods. But if there was out there anything to make me sleep more than 4 hours a day with interruptions and wake up at the smallest noise, I would eat that stuff up with a spoon.There isn't, so I cope as much as I can, and I am happy that at least for others there are remedies that work.
That simple.

I am not. To each her/his own, and if it works for you, congratulations.
 

SOoooooooooooooooooooooooopermouse!

HI!!!

how you been?

I am delighted to see you!
 

I am surviving. For now that is an achievement. Thank you for your kind words.
 

hooray for survival!
 

Eh. Someone admitted they made a mistake? In writing? On the internet? I must be hallucinating.

Just in case this is mistaken as support of an opinion to which it is irrelevant (as it will be) let me take a position: I don't think anyone who's ever taken any substance to alter their mood can seriously accuse folks with serious (or less serious) psychological problems of "using crutches". So, you know, the Elaine Vigneaults of this world, if you've ever smoked, or drank alcohol, or tea or coffee or munched on a candy bar, or devoured something stupid to cure your munchies... better keep quiet about your healthy outlook on life and your ability to handle your problems by shining rays of magical light out of your backsides.

... 'cause the sun only shines out of my backside, know what I mean?
 

Stassa ftw.
And frankly, I am sick of the "clear air and vitamins " people. They can take their sanctipony somewhere else.
Everyone deals with their own problems in their own ways, and the end result is what matters. And if you think you ahve the right to judge anyone for wat they do to cope, then go fuck yourself.
 

Eh. Someone admitted they made a mistake? In writing? On the internet? I must be hallucinating.

don't be fooled, stassa - it's just my passive-aggressive, butter-wouldn't-melt-in-my-mouth ploy to...to...I don't know. something.

seriously - I learned a really hard lesson about being wrong, lost, in error, confused - it's always always ALWAYS better (and never ever worse) to just say "I was wrong/lost/in error/confused". so, when it's brought to my attention, I try to pay attention.