Friday, September 21, 2007

Daisy's got something to say. And since she couldn't bring it to the source, she took it to her own blog.

Consider this:

FTR, I think sex work sounds terrible. I would not want to do it, or have my daughter do it. I would also not want to pick grapes or soybeans out in the fields, or work on an assembly line, as my father did. However, I do want the migrant workers and factory employees to have rights and unionization, whether I think they are exploited or not--in fact, PRIMARILY and PRECISELY for this reason--to prevent FURTHER exploitation.

Do you in fact agree that workers need unions and rights? Why are you making an exception for WOMEN, in this case? Why have you bought into the MALE definition of sex work as SEXUAL RELATIONSHIPS rather than a business transaction?

It's men who fantasize about the sex-work-scenarios being "real"--surely you realize they are not? They are part of the job, just as a car salesman laughs at our dumb jokes in hopes we will buy one of his cars. But you seem to have a totally different standard for judging women's work, in this instance, and what has historically been men's work. Men's work is respected by you, and women's is not, unless it's sewing, childcare, knitting or canning fruit.

(emphasis mine) or fucking for money, presumably.

The idea that only the men matter in the prostitute-client relationship is, well, sexist. Why would someone who calls herself a feminist (the best and most radical and least fun kind) want to be sexist?

Allowing men's opinions (or what are presumed to be the opinions of all men) to be given EXPONENTIALLY more weight than women's opinions on any given subject is also, well, sexist.

"men hate you." yeah, whatever. that doesn't mean I have to hate me, regardless of whether I exchange sexual activity for money or not.

I mean, speaking as a non-prostitute, there's a limit to what I can say on the subject, I know that. I have never had a pimp (though I did have an abusive husband who told me exactly who I would and would not be fucking on any particular evening, and to whom I surrendered my entire paycheck every week for the privilege, and who beat me often enough to keep me in a perpetual state of fear, and so on), nor have I ever accepted cash in exchange for intercourse (though I had no problem exchanging all manner of sexual activity for dinner or a place to stay or just some good conversation).

I can say that about 20 years ago, well prior to the aforementioned abusive marriage, I considered it, but for me personally I was dissuaded by several factors:

1) I didn't feel comfortable charging money for something that cost me nothing, and that I'd almost certainly give away free (and often did, to more-or-less-random-strangers).
2) As a somewhat non-traditional body type, making a rather unpleasant visual statement (short, fat, uninteresting, hairy), I wasn't sure I'd be able to earn any more money than I could earn sitting behind a desk without significant effort on my part to bring myself "up to spec", so to speak.
3) I didn't have a need for immediate cash, having no children to look after, or chronically ill relatives to tend to, or real deep pressing desire for something I couldn't afford on my more-or-less measly, and sadly far-from-frequent, paychecks.

but I never excluded sex work on the basis that it would make me a cumdumpster, or less worthy of respect in anyone's eyes, or because the act of intercourse was intimate and should not be degraded by money, or because my body was at all sacred or special or inviolable, or sex for money was rape, or anything else.

and how I felt about sex, and how I felt about myself, was not, and ought not be, contingent upon how others feel about me or about sex.

So, you know, take my opinion for what it's worth - significantly less than two cents, no doubt. But I can certainly envision a situation where a woman might look at her options and decide - eh, it's a living.

I think that for some women prostitution is just a job. I would not be surprised if some folks out there think it's not just a job but an avocation, a labor of love. (And of course, none of this is to diminish the fact that for some women, prostitution is a living hell.)

To assume that all women SHOULD hold the same opinion about a particular issue, and that opinion SHOULD be framed only in reflection of how MEN feel about the issue, is, well, sexist.

But, that's really all I can say on the subject. I'm not the boss of y'all, not trying to tell you what to think. Follow the links and make your own decisions, form your own opinions.

and when you do, please feel free to share them with me. Just because commenting is a spectator sport at The Margins for those of us who don't agree with Heart, doesn't mean the same policy is in effect here (obviously). Commenting around here can sometimes be more like extreme BMX solo synchronized downhill slalom Monster Truck cliff diving - but that shouldn't scare anyone away. ;)

I don't care if you agree with me or not - but if you have something to say, you are more than welcome to get it off your chest here. in fact I'd prefer it.


"men hate you." yeah, whatever. that doesn't mean I have to hate me, regardless of whether I exchange sexual activity for money or not.

right on.
I remember thinking (long ago) that prostitution would be the perfect business- low initial investment, low capital expenditures, pick your own hours. Over time, I've become aware that, just like any other business, you have to spend money to make money- cosmetic procedures, gym membership, clothes. Like private business, I am not sure unionization would work. Business owners are by nature a prickly and independent lot, and to have a union dictating how they do things would probably not go over well.

Out of curiousity- what do you mean by this "factory employees to have rights and unionization, whether I think they are exploited or not--in fact, PRIMARILY and PRECISELY for this reason--to prevent FURTHER exploitation."

Factory workers DO have rights, and here in the Deep South, where unionization is rare, factory workers tend to make higher wages than other wage-earners (service industry, farm workers, etc). The reason for this is not unions, but competition. Because the South is typically non-union, industry likes to locate here, and the more jobs available, the higher the competition for those jobs, and therefore the higher the wage offered. Likewise, the stronger the individual's work ethic, the higher the pay.

ok-I know that had nothing to do with prostitution, but unions and industry *are* something I know a bit about.
Rootie, I believe it was Belle (on my blog) who talked about "the Swedish model"--and I would contented with that. This would be putting sex workers in the category of "contract workers"--and means they would still be covered by health insurance and workers comp, opportunity for retirement 401Ks and all that. To me, any job that doesn't have that stuff, is risky by definition, no matter what it is.

I used to do medical transcription for local Workers comp cases, and well, they kinda blew my mind. Many of the workers would get shipped back to Mexico as soon as they got hurt. One (Mexican) domestic worker bitten by a brown recluse was simply fired with no recourse, and nearly died, too. I thought, this is fucked up.

I come from hard-core union people, so I believe unions are always superior, Amen. Repudiating this would be (for me) like arguing that He really didn't rise on the 3rd day. I don't argue either one! :P You either believe it or you don't!

But I see that unions (like my other comparison) aren't for everyone, but I would like the protections they offer extended to everyone. :)

I believe industry initially re-located to the south to exploit the once-ignorant work force, particularly (in the case of the textile companies) women. Now that we expect more benefits and $, they are moving to Mexico and other countries as they once flocked to the south--again to take advantage of an uninformed, ignorant, desperate work force that doesn't make any demands. IMHO.

I used to be ALL red, like Raven, but I mellowed. :)

Hi Raven!
BTW, Ms ISTM, thanks for adding your comments to mine, I appreciate someone understanding where I am coming from. :)

I had a (het male) friend who loved porn and part of this manifested as his belief that certain porn was "real"--and my favorite mean thing to do was to analyze it right in his face, act it out, make fun of it: Is that MAKE UP on her TWAT??? IT IS!!! This chick has MAKE UP ON HER TWAT! I hope you don't expect women to actually have cunts that color!

And then I would do the poses and facial expressions. ((((closes eyes and curls mouth into a seductive O shape))))

It really bothered him; he liked believing the fantasy. He always had this stunned look on his face whenever I did that--to borrow a line from Tom Wolfe: he looked like he'd just taken it in the back of the neck.

Someone needs to do the same to Heart, remind her it's not really happening, and that someone is making those faces for MONEY as part of their JOB.

What's weird is how she buys into the whole thing, as my aforementioned porn-addict friend also did. More alike than different, I'd say.

Then again, that is what Ren was saying about Robert Jensen, too.
Swedish Model...and I would contented with that. This would be putting sex workers in the category of "contract workers"

No, it wouldn't; most contract work relies in large part upon the understanding that the -clients- aren't criminals -either.- It's sort of hard to build up a client base when it basically amounts to entrapment, or at minimum doing it on the down low, still, I rather think.
BTW, Ms ISTM, thanks for adding your comments to mine, I appreciate someone understanding where I am coming from. :)

you know I love you, Daisy. (which, I know, just does wonders for your reputation. maybe if I really loved you I'd shut up and not embarrass you.)

I learn a lot from you.
Well done, AP.
Well said, well thought, well typed, well DONE!

My reputation has always been one of those iffy things! :D
AP: if you could go to

and read that. then pick it a part as you do ohh so very well. Thanks.

by the way it is a non-victim crime but it is suggested that it was done in the past. You'll see what I mean.
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