Friday, July 20, 2007
yeah, I'm going after a radical feminist. whadaya gonna do, call my mommy?
Here is JW's comment on a recent thread at the IBTP board:
We could do this by refusing to be mothers to males. Even in places where abortions or other adequate birth control are lacking, women could refuse to nurse male neonates. You may wonder what horrible tragedies would befall the poor women who didn't give men the sons they demanded. Might they be beaten? Might they be raped? Might they be killed?
Women are being beaten, raped, murdered, sold, and dehumanized right now, in torture porn and elsewhere. I'd rather die fighting as one of the last generation of women to suffer at the hands of men than to live a life of patriarchy-provided comfort, at the expense the generations of daughters to come.
First of all, I'd love to know where all the generations of daughters to come are going to come from, without any grown-up sons around to help out with that.
But, I'll let that itsee-bitsee lapse of logic slide for now, in the interest of sisterhood and understanding.
Because I have an invitation for you, JusticeWalks, or anyone else who shares her view.
Come visit me in early February. Stay with me a while, as I come to the end of my pregnancy. Meet me. Meet my Nigel. Talk to me. Defend your position on what to do with boy babies in order to create a better world. Explain to me why the world is better off without my son (if indeed I am having one). I promise I will listen with an open mind.
You can even hang out with me the day of delivery. And if you've managed to convince me that boy babies should be eliminated from the face of the earth, by all means I will hand the squirmy, slimy, screaming little bundle of patriarchy over to you immediately, and you may dispatch it as you see fit. to hell with what my Nigel thinks.
Humanely euthanize it, and wash your hands of the entire affair. or, starve it and watch it slowly expire over time. or, what the hell, bash its skull against a rock, why not, and let the blood cascade over your hands, and feel real good about yourself. You're making the world a better place.
Frankly, justicewalks, I don't think you have the guts to make living things dead in this manner. But if you think you do, come on down! our door is always open. We want to make the world a better place too, and if you think you have a better idea, well, we're waiting to be convinced.
oh, yeah, may be triggering. sorry.
but when the rubber hits the road, I doubt she's got the intestinal fortitude to look directly into the eyes of the mother of a newborn baby and suggest that she should kill it for no other reason than its gender.
but any that do, please drop by anytime. I am eager to know what you think, and if maybe I am missing something.
recall when lindsay beyerstien recommended that we evacuate the entire female population of Afganistan to the glorious freedom of Amurika? Had she thought about any of the actual issues involved in committing a slow motion genocide, she might have balked. But by the time she got called on it, hackles were in raised positions, and we all went home on the same sides of the fence that we started on.
note that she figures that in the developed world, this is going to be an action of surgical/medical means. she leaves it up to "other" women to do the actual infanticide.
otoh there WAS that time w-w offered to sacrifice her (grown, adult now) son if it meant making the world a safer place for her granddaughter and indeed all women.
on the other other hand, he's still alive and well last i checked, and with a cordial (he's online too) relationship with her, even.
as you say, talk is cheap.
(also mildly interested that she didn't offer her significant other -before- her son)
Why don't women who are so offended by the presence of men just go make themselves a commune somewhere, and, like the Shakers, die out for lack of sex.
AP you know I share your disdain. I've ceased being amused by their viewpoint and have become irritated. (or something...stronger..like..WTF!)
But as a human, woman, mother, feminist I support you posting this 100%.
I dare Justice to pose her theories to a roomful of grieving women who have lost their baby sons via crib death, illness, etc.
They'd rip her fucking head off, they would. In fact, me thinks Justice AKA Ms. PhD in Advance Rad Fem Theory need to shut up about this.
IF she cares about women the way I'm sure she claims.
This crap is upsetting to me, mother of a living daughter.
Had I lost a child, this would push me over the edge.
my mother, for example, would not be pleased. if she were alive.
I don't know. maybe I read her wrong. maybe I didn't "get" it.
maybe she wasn't talking about individual mothers today, but some collective group of mothers some distant day in the future.
maybe she's reading right now, rolling her eyes, going "I never said that. Goddess, I didn't mean you personally. why do you all take everything personally? I'm just saying it's neither radical nor feminist to let a boy baby live under patriarchy. you people are so stupid."
but maybe that is putting words in her mouth.
maybe the world will never know.
heh. it would be funny if someone's husband was really named Nigel.
maybe antiprince will change his name.
Not really. I heard it from Belle first.
but eventually it comes down to having to look individual mothers square in the eye and go "you need to kill it For The Sake of the Sisterhood."
The whole tone of that diatribe is sanctimonious, supercilious, buncha other $4 words I can't think of because I have 4 sons.
The person who wrote that is tacky and probably would never be invited to a DAR meeting.
"I say we pretend not to know her. What say you?"
Miss Bingly, Pride and Prejudice
captain of Industry fathers apparently are never Nigels, please note. (ooh, sorry, couldn't help myself)
but only if they're female wolves.
and then we can run with them, of course. wooOOOOooo
I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that every damn "straw" person or argument out there, exists in am honest to goddess real format -somewhere.-
including actual animate scarecrows.
"I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that every damn "straw" person or argument out there, exists in am honest to goddess real format -somewhere.-"
Well sure, a Straw thingy is a stereotype, and stereotypes don't come out of thin air. I mean, remember "hearty lesbian sludge"? That's a stereotype, and we've all known lesbians who eat that stuff. I daresay blonde Southern women have a stereotype, and I can find you a few right now.
These concepts are developed from real life situations. It's unfortunate that the whole JusticeBarfs scenario has real live breathing people behind it, but then so do Republicans, so maybe it's a balance.
That's IT! These UberRadicalFems, they are the Balance of the Universe for Smug Suburban Mommies, and together they keep the cosmos in place. Therefore, they're necessary, if unpleasant. Like houseflies or E.coli.
oh please, carry on. it's quite all right to trash Twisty now.
heh. I was ahead of the curve.
All woman spaces? I say, oh, how about 24 hours in a female penitentary, where I am SURE her solution would be SO well received....
well, to be fair, she didn't say she was down with bashing their little heads against a sharp rock. I added that myself.
she did suggest that women "refuse to nurse male neonates." which I think counts as "starving to death."
either way, dead is dead.
she never got over it. and I don't think the experience really, um, radicalized her. you know, it just made her, well, sad. too sad to get up off the couch for 40 years.
viva la revolucion.
I am yet and still hoping that maybe someone will show up on this thread and say "oh, no - you've got it all wrong. look at it this way," and then I'll be able to go, "oh, yeah, I get it. sorry, y'all."
I have a cousin named Nigel, btw. I also have cousins named Ivan and Dimitri, and they are both girls. Odd family, I have, but cool, even the MALES.
Maybe I'm being overemotional about this as I know it's not something you'd ever actually allow someone to DO, but the image itself is still very, very sad.
I'm sorry that these people are such idiots.
it makes me cry too.
I don't think that's a bad thing, to cry at that thought.
And I cried at the thought of "refusing to nurse male neonates" - which to me is not any different.
I do apologize for provoking those who maybe didn't need to be provoked today.
and please don't worry - the Little Fetus that Could is (as far as we can tell) quite safe.
I said that she had to convince me. which - highly unlikely.
Belle said: "I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that every damn "straw" person or argument out there, exists in am honest to goddess real format -somewhere.-"
AP said: "I am told that my mom was never the same after her son died.
she never got over it. and I don't think the experience really, um, radicalized her. you know, it just made her, well, sad. too sad to get up off the couch for 40 years.'
I told her, "As best I can guess from context, it's Idiot for 'boyfriend'."
FTR, this has been said before, but I forget who said it first. The terminology was similar, as in "refusing to mother"--one of those vague descriptions that could mean anything.
I do know Sonia Johnson was one feminist who advocated "refusing to mother sons"--and actually stopped speaking to her grown sons and recommended others do the same, a fact which caused some consternation years ago. When I interviewed her in 1984, she still hadn't made this decision and would have been the last person you'd imagine saying this. I'd really like to know what happened in the interim and why she changed.
so how was it explained that "refusing to mother" was a better idea than mothering sanely? (or at least, less insanely?)
I do know Sonia Johnson was one feminist who advocated "refusing to mother sons"--and actually stopped speaking to her grown sons and recommended others do the same, a fact which caused some consternation years ago.
that's interesting. wonder where we can find out more.
Well, can't speak for anyone else, but I'd love to cuddle your little baby after s/he's born!!!! (((gush))) (((kissy-face baby)))
c'mon down! :)
nor has anyone chimed in with a "stop picking on individual radfems" type thing.
if you're out there, speak up.
if you make sense, nobody will mess with you.
awful to not speak to your own family just because of some damn ideology. me, i always guess there's other stuff going on there, but...
AntiP, did some research, and pretty sure the original sentiment was Mary Daly's in PURE LUST, about "not giving energy to males" and such. I am not a fan of Daly AT ALL, never have been, so you are most definitely asking the wrong person. I am over with the Firestone radfems, and I think Twisty actually is too. The Dalyites and the Firestonites never did agree.
Daly scripted the recent attack on Gandhi over at IBTP, if you caught that. Attacking him for the Hindu practice of Brahmacharaya (spelling?) which manifested as "sleeping with" young women and not having sex with him. I don't think there is anything intrinsically bad about that, and not sure why they did. Yes, it's certainly not something we do in the West, but I have respect for that practice, which is spiritual and about renunciation. I like that stuff. Daly thinks all patriarchal religion is bad, and I think we can salvage lots of good stuff from it.
The only good thing to come out of Daly's ideas was the popularization of the word CRONE, which I admit I think is cool.
as i've said, personally i sort of dig some of the moon goddessy shit, but, well, i like 'em sane, and serious. there are a couple of such blogs on my roll. people naming themselves things like YoniPetal LunaWimbyn tend to go into my "people affected with a terminal case of Ren Faire-itis" file until proven otherwise. and, as i've said, i have no time for the essentialistic crap. yeah, i think some body-centered rituals and such can be cool if you're into it; but it's just, you know, to ground yourself in your body, as far as i'm concerned; it's not to play some weirdass game of inverted Social Darwinism, or Star Bellied Feminists or whatever it is.
It is an unacceptable burden on rad feminists to have to listen to anything at all about the menz, even baby menz.
The infanticide thing is for the future, I'd guess: when we are free of all men.
She's not going to defend herself here because you aren't radfems and aren't expected to live up to those standards. Only the one true feminist radfems have the guts to dismiss men altogether, including their sons.
We are all failures at feminism for not understanding how male-identified we are.
Or something like that.
There is truly no place--except a few wimminspace shelters--that is rad enough for the raddiest of the rad.
I'm also still puzzling over a cryptic comment by "sis" that she had to put Pony down because she was becoming unmanageable. That's the nosy gossip coming out in me, I guess.
But really, the martyr complex emanating from them is unbelievable. Nobody is radical enough, and it's telling that Heart starts her drag post by stating her support for justicewalks.
Me and Heart just managed to discuss our differences over trans politics on her blog yesterday, without a food-fight, so I think it's still possible for radfems to discuss diverging views fairly rationally. Maybe not on Twisty's?
As for me: I miss my grandbaby so much, I need a baby to cuddle, so bring em over to me, you young wimminz! I honestly wish I'd had more children, and economics be damned. Money comes and goes, but human beings are souls that last forever. It's a real regret I have. AntiP, you are embarking on a wonderful journey of creation! (gush gush)
And that's my old lady sermon for this Sunday morn. :)
I never get to hold my grandson or granddaughter enough. So I'd be happy to provide virtual hugs to a future AP son any time!
It's true, of course, that JW's all hat & no cattle where actually killing's concerned. But since when is that a recommendation? Most people who've ever bayed for human blood never personally got their hands dirty, even if somebody else did. Whether it's actual incitement or just bullshit trash talk, the Rule is that rhetorical violence like this is Not a Good Thing.
Of course, I started a thread right before that all started snarking about how if all males are so evil, why am I bothering to raise my son instead of feeding him to the wolves, and got responses telling me the board didn't really feel that way, and that I was being dramatic.
katinachoovanski - welcome!
I don't think you were being dramatic at all. I think you were calling someone on her shit. a time-honored tradition in the radfem community.
but that's just my opinion, and maybe I shouldn't even be allowed to have one, being all pregnant and stuff. maybe I'm biased.
There are a bunch of threads about this in the None of the Above section.
Now Delphyne and JW are whining on Heart's blog about how unfair and woman-hating IBTP is; including how it is obvious that the mods are all trans* and male-centric.
That's just not my idea of what a strong woman should be. We're better than that, and need to set a better example for our children than "an eye for an eye!"
She says stuff like:
Men are responsible for racism (and women wouldn't be racist if it wasn't for the menz), twuu women aren't capitalists, etc. She even managed to sneak in a little transphobia in here too, no penis-comparing contests without "natural-born spectators." -http://easypersiflage.com/blameforum/index.php?topic=357.15
Wow, I think she needs to get off the drugs.
my old pal Sharon, folks. she'll be here all week! :)
Not being a baby person I can't really offer cuddling of the prospective mini male AP (once he's a toddler that would be another matter entirely - toddlers are awesome), but I could babysit your cats or something.
I'm not sure that justicewalks isn't advocating actual infanticide, though. She is pretty reality-challenged in general. As you say, though, AP, she probably wouldn't advocate any such thing IRL. Everyone's brave on the Net (and prone to hyperbole), but she really doesn't strike me as someone who would have what Mr Cassandra calls "the courage of the blood".