Tuesday, May 08, 2007
check out this comment onthis thread 'round by Sage's place:
Oh yes sir! Master please tell us all again how we're allowed to feel about it. Because, clearly if we don't worship porn and your opinions then we're just fundamentalist nazis - or something. Please, tell us what we're allowed to feel, and think. I wanna be a good, fun, cool feminist! Just like these good little obedient girls trained so well to do and say exactly as their told. It's so empowering to watch women celebrate being obedient! Yay obedience!!
Here's a clue skippy - most sex workers are not happy in the work because most sex workers aren't there voluntarily. Check out any study done on the topic in the last 50 years. Therefore focusing on the few obedient girls who've spent a great deal of time convincing themselves they like being treated like human toilet paper is ignoring reality. Which is par for the course for pornstick dudes.
(emphasis mine, follow link for context)
I'm trying not to derail the thread or cause trouble, so I brought this all back to my own living room to piss on.
is having sex considered "obedience"? is not having sex considered "obedience"?
What kind of sex? sex with whom? obedience to whom?
When I was a young teenager in the early 80s, it was clear to me that the worst worst WORST thing any girl could do was fuck. Fucking was more unforgiveable than drinking, more unforgiveable than smoking, more unforgiveable even than failing geometry (and believe me, that was pretty unforgiveable). Fucking would RUIN YOUR LIFE. Instantly. Completely. I got the impression that once that cherry was popped, a girl's life would be nothing but poverty, misery, and broken dreams. Intercourse was a one-way ticket on the bullet train to hell on earth.
Maybe other people had sane parents, but this was my experience. Girls and sex did not mix. No no no no no no no. and get your hand out of there. and wipe that crap off your face. and button your blouse. and stop reading that trash! and don't you have homework? why are you so boy-crazy?
(it should probably be pointed out here that I was both boy- and girl-crazy in equal measure. which caused problems of its own.)
So - it should come as no great shock that all I wanted to do was the horizontal pogo. Once I was in college, I made up for lost time, you bet.
I remember shedding my virginity like a snakeskin. I remember being surprised that I didn't break out in green and purple spots, or manifest a sudden bright neon "A" on my forehead. I remember that my first forays into the world of sexual activity felt not only physically pleasurable but also personally unshackling, and politically relevant. Fucking felt like the ultimate autonomy to me.
"fuck me, Johnny!" was really "fuck you, parents. fuck you, school. fuck you, heels and pearls and folded hands and empty minds. fuck you, meat loaf night. fuck you, preconceived notions of what is success and what is failure." while this young man (whoever he was) was sticking it to me, I was sticking it to The Man.
I'm not ashamed. or even sorry. to me, in 1989, a woman owning her sexual pleasure was a radical thing. brave. rebellious. hardly obedient.
Almost twenty years on, even after all I've experienced, I still think that a woman owning her sexual pleasure is a radical thing. I don't think it sells out the sisterhood to admit that I think sexual pleasure is worth prioritizing, at least a little bit.
but maybe things have changed for younger women. maybe there are social pressures I don't see, possibly due to the fact that I'm approaching the Age of Invisibility anyway. maybe there is some increased pressure to be all sorts of fuckable all the damn time. I can see where that would get tedious, to say the least. Maybe the rebellious, disobedient thing is to not fuck these days, no matter how much a woman really really wants to. and if you want to be rebellious and disobedient, that's what you do.
sex NEVER felt obedient to the patriarchy for me. (it still doesn't, husband notwithstanding.) and I speak up and say this not because I want to make it ALL ABOUT SELFISH SELFISH ME, but because I know I'm not a unique snowflake and I have a hunch that I am not the only individual out there who has had a similar experience.
any thoughts?
Oh yes sir! Master please tell us all again how we're allowed to feel about it. Because, clearly if we don't worship porn and your opinions then we're just fundamentalist nazis - or something. Please, tell us what we're allowed to feel, and think. I wanna be a good, fun, cool feminist! Just like these good little obedient girls trained so well to do and say exactly as their told. It's so empowering to watch women celebrate being obedient! Yay obedience!!
Here's a clue skippy - most sex workers are not happy in the work because most sex workers aren't there voluntarily. Check out any study done on the topic in the last 50 years. Therefore focusing on the few obedient girls who've spent a great deal of time convincing themselves they like being treated like human toilet paper is ignoring reality. Which is par for the course for pornstick dudes.
(emphasis mine, follow link for context)
I'm trying not to derail the thread or cause trouble, so I brought this all back to my own living room to piss on.
is having sex considered "obedience"? is not having sex considered "obedience"?
What kind of sex? sex with whom? obedience to whom?
When I was a young teenager in the early 80s, it was clear to me that the worst worst WORST thing any girl could do was fuck. Fucking was more unforgiveable than drinking, more unforgiveable than smoking, more unforgiveable even than failing geometry (and believe me, that was pretty unforgiveable). Fucking would RUIN YOUR LIFE. Instantly. Completely. I got the impression that once that cherry was popped, a girl's life would be nothing but poverty, misery, and broken dreams. Intercourse was a one-way ticket on the bullet train to hell on earth.
Maybe other people had sane parents, but this was my experience. Girls and sex did not mix. No no no no no no no. and get your hand out of there. and wipe that crap off your face. and button your blouse. and stop reading that trash! and don't you have homework? why are you so boy-crazy?
(it should probably be pointed out here that I was both boy- and girl-crazy in equal measure. which caused problems of its own.)
So - it should come as no great shock that all I wanted to do was the horizontal pogo. Once I was in college, I made up for lost time, you bet.
I remember shedding my virginity like a snakeskin. I remember being surprised that I didn't break out in green and purple spots, or manifest a sudden bright neon "A" on my forehead. I remember that my first forays into the world of sexual activity felt not only physically pleasurable but also personally unshackling, and politically relevant. Fucking felt like the ultimate autonomy to me.
"fuck me, Johnny!" was really "fuck you, parents. fuck you, school. fuck you, heels and pearls and folded hands and empty minds. fuck you, meat loaf night. fuck you, preconceived notions of what is success and what is failure." while this young man (whoever he was) was sticking it to me, I was sticking it to The Man.
I'm not ashamed. or even sorry. to me, in 1989, a woman owning her sexual pleasure was a radical thing. brave. rebellious. hardly obedient.
Almost twenty years on, even after all I've experienced, I still think that a woman owning her sexual pleasure is a radical thing. I don't think it sells out the sisterhood to admit that I think sexual pleasure is worth prioritizing, at least a little bit.
but maybe things have changed for younger women. maybe there are social pressures I don't see, possibly due to the fact that I'm approaching the Age of Invisibility anyway. maybe there is some increased pressure to be all sorts of fuckable all the damn time. I can see where that would get tedious, to say the least. Maybe the rebellious, disobedient thing is to not fuck these days, no matter how much a woman really really wants to. and if you want to be rebellious and disobedient, that's what you do.
sex NEVER felt obedient to the patriarchy for me. (it still doesn't, husband notwithstanding.) and I speak up and say this not because I want to make it ALL ABOUT SELFISH SELFISH ME, but because I know I'm not a unique snowflake and I have a hunch that I am not the only individual out there who has had a similar experience.
any thoughts?
# posted by antiprincess @ 8:49 AM 
Comments:
did I contribute to my own rape(s) over the years because I consented to (indeed, insisted on) sex, thereby giving young men the "wrong idea"?
No, no, and a million times, NO!
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The big thing that really hit me when I became sexually active was one particular friend of mine who basically started having paroxysms of panic -- that sexual activity would lead to Disease. Or Pregnancy. And was I being careful -- was I being careful enough, oh gods was I being careful enough?
And the ... I saw people trying to build in that panic, though it didn't register to me personally. Not 'sex is forbidden' but 'sex is too risky to be worth trying, panic panic panic'.
(I became sexually active in ... 1994, if I did my math right.)
And the ... I saw people trying to build in that panic, though it didn't register to me personally. Not 'sex is forbidden' but 'sex is too risky to be worth trying, panic panic panic'.
(I became sexually active in ... 1994, if I did my math right.)
Heh, you really want to know? Who was that commenter directly attacking there...me, the men, and anyone who dared question certain things. DAMN US ALL FOR NOT FEELING OPRESSED AND EXPLOITED, or FOR KNOWING (in the mens case) they are OPRESSORS AND EXPLOITERS.
Damn us for not seeing what they see, KNOWING what their (inaccurate) studies dictate are TRUTH, and for fuck sake, not doing what we are TOLD to do. By them.
As belle is wont to say, meet the new boss...
And for fucksake, DAMN any woman who doesnt see or like sex Anony's way.
There is nothing wrong with sex, AP, and you know that, even if Anony doesn't.
Damn us for not seeing what they see, KNOWING what their (inaccurate) studies dictate are TRUTH, and for fuck sake, not doing what we are TOLD to do. By them.
As belle is wont to say, meet the new boss...
And for fucksake, DAMN any woman who doesnt see or like sex Anony's way.
There is nothing wrong with sex, AP, and you know that, even if Anony doesn't.
Translation of that remark:
"Men are not allowed to tell women what to think and feel; only TRUE feminists are allowed to tell all women what they are allowed to think and feel - and any woman who is not a TRUE feminist has no right even opening her mouth."
As a man and a feminist, I prefer to listen to women, and respect their choices: sexual, economic, emotional, whatever. Damn me for being willing to accept that a woman can enjoy the things I like to do with her, and has the confidence and freedom to tell me so!
"Men are not allowed to tell women what to think and feel; only TRUE feminists are allowed to tell all women what they are allowed to think and feel - and any woman who is not a TRUE feminist has no right even opening her mouth."
As a man and a feminist, I prefer to listen to women, and respect their choices: sexual, economic, emotional, whatever. Damn me for being willing to accept that a woman can enjoy the things I like to do with her, and has the confidence and freedom to tell me so!
# posted by 
: 11:10 AM
: 11:10 AM
There is nothing wrong with sex, AP, and you know that, even if Anony doesn't.
well, yeah - but that's not the question. the question was not "is there anything wrong with sex", it was "is sex obedient?"
and, boy - there's some whomping huge variables wrapped up in there:
sex with whom? obedient to whom? under what circumstances?
well, yeah - but that's not the question. the question was not "is there anything wrong with sex", it was "is sex obedient?"
and, boy - there's some whomping huge variables wrapped up in there:
sex with whom? obedient to whom? under what circumstances?
sex NEVER felt obedient to the patriarchy for me. (it still doesn't, husband notwithstanding.) and I speak up and say this not because I want to make it ALL ABOUT SELFISH SELFISH ME, but because I know I'm not a unique snowflake and I have a hunch that I am not the only individual out there who has had a similar experience.
Yep, my experience was similar to the way you described yours. And, I'm about 12 years younger than you, for whatever that's worth.
I need to write about this on my own blog soon, about my experience. You have inspired me! You put everything so well.
Yep, my experience was similar to the way you described yours. And, I'm about 12 years younger than you, for whatever that's worth.
I need to write about this on my own blog soon, about my experience. You have inspired me! You put everything so well.
aw, shit amber - I erased more than I even said in this post.
It occurs to me (now, a little too late) that part of the reason why my young-adult sexual experiences were so positive for me is that they were totally voluntary.
someone without that luxury would, obviously, have a very different view of the subject.
the non-voluntary stuff came later.
did I contribute to my own rape(s) over the years because I consented to (indeed, insisted on) sex, thereby giving young men the "wrong idea"?
It occurs to me (now, a little too late) that part of the reason why my young-adult sexual experiences were so positive for me is that they were totally voluntary.
someone without that luxury would, obviously, have a very different view of the subject.
the non-voluntary stuff came later.
did I contribute to my own rape(s) over the years because I consented to (indeed, insisted on) sex, thereby giving young men the "wrong idea"?
did I contribute to my own rape(s) over the years because I consented to (indeed, insisted on) sex, thereby giving young men the "wrong idea"?
No, no, and a million times, NO!
but - if I've done anything to encourage the idea that men are somehow entitled to female flesh, even inadvertently, then yes, I've contributed to my own rape.
not that I deserved it, but I contributed to the mindset that women are nothing but holes.
which, frankly, I don't believe, but there's noplace else where that logic can go, for me.
not that I deserved it, but I contributed to the mindset that women are nothing but holes.
which, frankly, I don't believe, but there's noplace else where that logic can go, for me.
thanks for this. The whole idea of being a young woman and owning your sexuality; oh god it brought back my youth so strongly. I was another woman who was taught that my body was not my own; it belonged first to god, then it would belong to my husband, but never to me. and then to find out differently, that I could fuck for fun, for myself, yes, it was liberating.
I was talking to a friend the other day, and what we found the saddest was that of all the ways the patriarchy can oppress us, why help it along by stealing our sexuality too? Why be the patriarchy's cohort?
I was talking to a friend the other day, and what we found the saddest was that of all the ways the patriarchy can oppress us, why help it along by stealing our sexuality too? Why be the patriarchy's cohort?
"so sex is obedient to some natural urge that would exist with or without patriarchy, you think? "
Yes.
Yes.
I was talking to a friend the other day, and what we found the saddest was that of all the ways the patriarchy can oppress us, why help it along by stealing our sexuality too? Why be the patriarchy's cohort?
well phrased.
it's always good to see you, Kactus. how are you feeling lately?
well phrased.
it's always good to see you, Kactus. how are you feeling lately?
ok, this:
if I've done anything to encourage the idea that men are somehow entitled to female flesh, even inadvertently, then yes, I've contributed to my own rape.
Um, no, I call bullshit on that one, antiprincess. And you know it, really.
Men rape women. Period. Women do not contribute to our rapes, especially when all we're doing is enjoying our god/dess-given right to our own bodies.
Like I said, I know you know that, I expect you're just working your thoughts out, but damn, no.
if I've done anything to encourage the idea that men are somehow entitled to female flesh, even inadvertently, then yes, I've contributed to my own rape.
Um, no, I call bullshit on that one, antiprincess. And you know it, really.
Men rape women. Period. Women do not contribute to our rapes, especially when all we're doing is enjoying our god/dess-given right to our own bodies.
Like I said, I know you know that, I expect you're just working your thoughts out, but damn, no.
of all the ways the patriarchy can oppress us, why help it along by stealing our sexuality too? Why be the patriarchy's cohort?
Word.
Word.
here:
I Heidi am part of a system. I am part of Class Woman. and everything I do affects everyone else in Class Woman. right? right.
(for sake of argument)
so, I Heidi set off to get my freak on. I find a fellow and say "hey, baby, how you doin'? I got the rubber gloves, you go get the apron!" hilarity ensues. Yay freak. I enjoy my selfish selfish orgasm. aaaaaaaaaaaah. and maybe one more. aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah.
with this action, though, theoretically, I have helped to solidify the idea in my partner's mind that all women just love doing whatever gave me my selfish selfish orgasm. all women are available to him in the way that I have just made myself available to him.
which, of course, contributes to the poison-patriarchy culture of rape, which eventually trickles on back to me, as a member of Class Woman, in the form of a particularly aggressive man who won't take no for an answer.
unless, of course, I am not a member of Class Woman because...because why? shit, I don't know.
or, unless the idea that my selfish selfish orgasm only helps the patriarchy is flawed in itself. which I suspect is the case.
I Heidi am part of a system. I am part of Class Woman. and everything I do affects everyone else in Class Woman. right? right.
(for sake of argument)
so, I Heidi set off to get my freak on. I find a fellow and say "hey, baby, how you doin'? I got the rubber gloves, you go get the apron!" hilarity ensues. Yay freak. I enjoy my selfish selfish orgasm. aaaaaaaaaaaah. and maybe one more. aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah.
with this action, though, theoretically, I have helped to solidify the idea in my partner's mind that all women just love doing whatever gave me my selfish selfish orgasm. all women are available to him in the way that I have just made myself available to him.
which, of course, contributes to the poison-patriarchy culture of rape, which eventually trickles on back to me, as a member of Class Woman, in the form of a particularly aggressive man who won't take no for an answer.
unless, of course, I am not a member of Class Woman because...because why? shit, I don't know.
or, unless the idea that my selfish selfish orgasm only helps the patriarchy is flawed in itself. which I suspect is the case.
with this action, though, theoretically, I have helped to solidify the idea in my partner's mind that all women just love doing whatever gave me my selfish selfish orgasm. all women are available to him in the way that I have just made myself available to him.
This assumes that your partner is pretty fucking stupid.
Infants are unable to differentiate between "Mom" and "everybody else in the world." Then, eventually, we start walking, talking, and wiping our own asses.
(And I know you don't believe any of this... it's for the sake of argument.)
This assumes that your partner is pretty fucking stupid.
Infants are unable to differentiate between "Mom" and "everybody else in the world." Then, eventually, we start walking, talking, and wiping our own asses.
(And I know you don't believe any of this... it's for the sake of argument.)
oh, thank you for asking, antip; I'm much better these days, thanks. Nothing like a bout of bronchitis in the spring to make you feel feisty.
Boundaries are good. Having them is good.
Dealing with people who can't figure out that respecting boundaries is necessary is mostly a pain in the arse and liable to stress.
I've run into people who appear to believe "All women are one women", you know, the crackpots who say things like "My last girlfriend liked this, so why don't you?" or "Your consent to have sex with this one guy will teach him that Women Want To Fuck Him" -- these people aren't worth your time. They're worth backing away from slowly while you find a stick.
Dealing with people who can't figure out that respecting boundaries is necessary is mostly a pain in the arse and liable to stress.
I've run into people who appear to believe "All women are one women", you know, the crackpots who say things like "My last girlfriend liked this, so why don't you?" or "Your consent to have sex with this one guy will teach him that Women Want To Fuck Him" -- these people aren't worth your time. They're worth backing away from slowly while you find a stick.
Boundaries are good. Having them is good.
Dealing with people who can't figure out that respecting boundaries is necessary is mostly a pain in the arse and liable to stress.
I've run into people who appear to believe "All women are one women", you know, the crackpots who say things like "My last girlfriend liked this, so why don't you?" or "Your consent to have sex with this one guy will teach him that Women Want To Fuck Him" -- these people aren't worth your time. They're worth backing away from slowly while you find a stick.
hear fucking hear.
that said: welcome back, AP.
kactus: glad to hear you're feeling better.
Dealing with people who can't figure out that respecting boundaries is necessary is mostly a pain in the arse and liable to stress.
I've run into people who appear to believe "All women are one women", you know, the crackpots who say things like "My last girlfriend liked this, so why don't you?" or "Your consent to have sex with this one guy will teach him that Women Want To Fuck Him" -- these people aren't worth your time. They're worth backing away from slowly while you find a stick.
hear fucking hear.
that said: welcome back, AP.
kactus: glad to hear you're feeling better.
except for Robert Jensen.
and Stan Goff, and John Stoltenberg, and that lovely Rich character what posts at the Margins, and...
and Stan Goff, and John Stoltenberg, and that lovely Rich character what posts at the Margins, and...
Wow. I missed a whole flame war.
I had no clue that thread had gotten so long. And, I think Sage misunderstood me. Maybe.
I had no clue that thread had gotten so long. And, I think Sage misunderstood me. Maybe.
they see hierarchy in everything.
"
I'm not ashamed. or even sorry. to me, in 1989, a woman owning her sexual pleasure was a radical thing. brave. rebellious. hardly obedient.
Almost twenty years on, even after all I've experienced, I still think that a woman owning her sexual pleasure is a radical thing. I don't think it sells out the sisterhood to admit that I think sexual pleasure is worth prioritizing, at least a little bit."
yes.
and: i became sexually active in 2000.
i wasn't under the same kind of "girls can't" pressure as you.
but I *did* know for sure I was a sadomasochist, and believe that the moment I touched someone I would become Jeffrey Dahmer and need to be institutionalized lest I seriously harm people.
Learning to trust myself Changed. My. Life.
"
I'm not ashamed. or even sorry. to me, in 1989, a woman owning her sexual pleasure was a radical thing. brave. rebellious. hardly obedient.
Almost twenty years on, even after all I've experienced, I still think that a woman owning her sexual pleasure is a radical thing. I don't think it sells out the sisterhood to admit that I think sexual pleasure is worth prioritizing, at least a little bit."
yes.
and: i became sexually active in 2000.
i wasn't under the same kind of "girls can't" pressure as you.
but I *did* know for sure I was a sadomasochist, and believe that the moment I touched someone I would become Jeffrey Dahmer and need to be institutionalized lest I seriously harm people.
Learning to trust myself Changed. My. Life.
and I say it was "a radical thing".
it's not the only radical thing. just a radical thing.
and I realize that this whole post and thread is so whompingly hetsexist. there's a lot of my own story I'm leaving out, maybe for simplicity's sake. but in doing that, I exclude the experiences of many others as well. so I am sorry for that.
it's not the only radical thing. just a radical thing.
and I realize that this whole post and thread is so whompingly hetsexist. there's a lot of my own story I'm leaving out, maybe for simplicity's sake. but in doing that, I exclude the experiences of many others as well. so I am sorry for that.
AP. Hon. Seriously. Please stop being so hard on yourself.
You are an amazing person. You're one of the most gracious people I have the good fortune of knowing.
Look - it's your blog. You have NO obligation to babysit other people's feelings or attempt to account for the experience of everyone else in the world, at every turn.
Aside from that not being the point of a blog, it's impossible.
You are an amazing person. You're one of the most gracious people I have the good fortune of knowing.
Look - it's your blog. You have NO obligation to babysit other people's feelings or attempt to account for the experience of everyone else in the world, at every turn.
Aside from that not being the point of a blog, it's impossible.
Hmm, it's weird. I can't relate to this at all - I never really felt pressured not to have sex, though I can admit to being like dw3t's friend in my own head occasionally; Disease was a big scare for me for a while... But I got over it. Sexual contact and eventually sex? They weren't revolutionary, for me (aside from going "YES, so it IS going to be as good as I imagined it!"... "Let's do it again!")
That was, mm... late summer 2003? PIV, anyway, probably winter 1999 otherwise.
But.
In my sister (who is five years younger than me), I see a very different story.
She started masturbating much later than I did, I'm not sure if it was out of shame or not. She wants to have sex but is simultaneously scared shitless. I'm not sure if she wants to because she thinks she SHOULD or if she honestly wants it. I don't know where her pressures are coming from.
I resolve now to talk to her about it ASAP.
That was, mm... late summer 2003? PIV, anyway, probably winter 1999 otherwise.
But.
In my sister (who is five years younger than me), I see a very different story.
She started masturbating much later than I did, I'm not sure if it was out of shame or not. She wants to have sex but is simultaneously scared shitless. I'm not sure if she wants to because she thinks she SHOULD or if she honestly wants it. I don't know where her pressures are coming from.
I resolve now to talk to her about it ASAP.
Having sex never felt obedient to me, either. I always felt that the patriarchy had a far stronger interest in PREVENTING me from having sex than it did in FORCING me to have sex.
I think this may be an issue where each person's experiences color their perspective to the point where they can't see the other POV at all. I would imagine that any woman whose early experiences made her feel like she was required to have sex might easily end up feeling like that commenter at Sage's blog, but that's not how things feel to me at all.
I think this may be an issue where each person's experiences color their perspective to the point where they can't see the other POV at all. I would imagine that any woman whose early experiences made her feel like she was required to have sex might easily end up feeling like that commenter at Sage's blog, but that's not how things feel to me at all.
well, for me it wasn't having sex per se so much as what KIND of sex I wanted--actually, it wasn't even -having- sex, it was having -desire- for the Wrong People that was, if not disobedient to Authority so much, would earn me disfavor in the eyes of my peers, and I'd internalized it as well of course.
and yeah, what CS said. although--how about some goddam empathy here?! in general. i mean i've certainly never tried to tell anyone who felt pressured to have sex that her experiences were invalid. i just wish some people didn't feel the need to act like splendid assholes toward everyone else in the process of sharing their own stuff, yah?
that is, not that i am particularly looking for empathy from the likes of nonny mice and the usual suspects (that could be a good name for a--never mind), just: this has gotten really stupid, on the whole. if I never hear the word "sexbot" again--
amber - it's cool. I'm not suicidal, just sorry.
ordinarily I am not so exclusive. when I noticed, I thought I should mention. that's all.
ordinarily I am not so exclusive. when I noticed, I thought I should mention. that's all.
AP, so glad to see you back posting.
I became sexually active in 1987 as a freshman (freshwoman).
I don't know that I saw sex as "obedience" exactly, and having fairly liberal parents helped. But I had a few one-night stands in college because I felt I "should," and I never got much out of them because I was too concerned with seeming wild and spontaneous to really ask for what I wanted. I never had "selfish orgasms" outside a relationship, until I hit about 30.
It wasn't until around then that I felt OK about AP's example of "hey, baby, how you doin'?" But while those weren't words I used, I must admit I did stuff like that on occasion. One lucky thing about women is that usually a little eye contact makes that stuff clear, without having to be too obvious about it.
I agree with Amber's analsis of the "all woman are one woman" hypothetical. It'd take a pretty dumb patriarch to buy that, and it's not any woman's responsibility to educate someone like that.
"i just wish some people didn't feel the need to act like splendid assholes toward everyone else in the process of sharing their own stuff, yah?"
Agree. It's hard to open up around certain subjects. And then to have to make sure to do so in a way that's perfectly PC and inclusive makes it even harder. In my book, any nonjudgmental sharing of personal experiences is valued.
I became sexually active in 1987 as a freshman (freshwoman).
I don't know that I saw sex as "obedience" exactly, and having fairly liberal parents helped. But I had a few one-night stands in college because I felt I "should," and I never got much out of them because I was too concerned with seeming wild and spontaneous to really ask for what I wanted. I never had "selfish orgasms" outside a relationship, until I hit about 30.
It wasn't until around then that I felt OK about AP's example of "hey, baby, how you doin'?" But while those weren't words I used, I must admit I did stuff like that on occasion. One lucky thing about women is that usually a little eye contact makes that stuff clear, without having to be too obvious about it.
I agree with Amber's analsis of the "all woman are one woman" hypothetical. It'd take a pretty dumb patriarch to buy that, and it's not any woman's responsibility to educate someone like that.
"i just wish some people didn't feel the need to act like splendid assholes toward everyone else in the process of sharing their own stuff, yah?"
Agree. It's hard to open up around certain subjects. And then to have to make sure to do so in a way that's perfectly PC and inclusive makes it even harder. In my book, any nonjudgmental sharing of personal experiences is valued.
My earliest experience with sexuality were not terribly consensual; I spent a lot of time feeling that my sexuality was something that had been taken out of me and distributed to the people around me so that they owned it and could do whatever they wanted with it and I had no control over it.
As I started to recover from the parts of this that were active damage (as opposed to merely annoying and stupid) I began a (still-incomplete) process of reclaiming that energy and making it *mine*, rather than something that had been divided up among the sexually harassing assholes on the bus in junior high school, the boyfriend who tried to rape me, the guy who thought that playing Tetris on his Nintendo meant we were an Item, the "nice girls don't" crowd, the "sexy girls do" crowd, and all the other people who figured they had more say in my sexuality than I do.
... yeah, I keep making comments that want to turn into posts on my own space. I'll do that later, after the laundry.
As I started to recover from the parts of this that were active damage (as opposed to merely annoying and stupid) I began a (still-incomplete) process of reclaiming that energy and making it *mine*, rather than something that had been divided up among the sexually harassing assholes on the bus in junior high school, the boyfriend who tried to rape me, the guy who thought that playing Tetris on his Nintendo meant we were an Item, the "nice girls don't" crowd, the "sexy girls do" crowd, and all the other people who figured they had more say in my sexuality than I do.
... yeah, I keep making comments that want to turn into posts on my own space. I'll do that later, after the laundry.
I always felt that the patriarchy had a far stronger interest in PREVENTING me from having sex than it did in FORCING me to have sex.
I agree with this. Not to make men EARN sex by having the high-powered career, the appropriately manicured fingers, the correct bourgeois manners, the willingness to kill other men to earn the extra buck --all of this undermines the system of capitalism and patriarchy.
I agree with this. Not to make men EARN sex by having the high-powered career, the appropriately manicured fingers, the correct bourgeois manners, the willingness to kill other men to earn the extra buck --all of this undermines the system of capitalism and patriarchy.
If it counts for anything, i really like your tone and attitude. I like "rude" wimmin, who are really just wimmin who poke their herads out beyond the patriarchal nice girl facades we're all imprisoned in. It's really had to punch a hole in these facades without upsetting wimmin whose critiques may not encompass hands on up close understandings about what patriarchal domination looks like.
Keep punching holes in tha shit. They may not approve of you. But, I suspect from reading what you're writing here that YOU like you.
Peace and solidarity...if you don't mind what this rude gyal has to say. ;)
Keep punching holes in tha shit. They may not approve of you. But, I suspect from reading what you're writing here that YOU like you.
Peace and solidarity...if you don't mind what this rude gyal has to say. ;)
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# posted by : 3:52 PM
: 3:52 PM
From the moment the first Mercedes-Benz CLS four-door "coupe" was introduced to the public, other German luxury automakers hit the drafting board. According to the German auto experts at AutoBild, Audi is just over a year away from unleashing its own cleverly packaged sedan.
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# posted by : 1:16 PM
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