Friday, January 12, 2007
I'm sorry if this comes off as patronizing - I don't intend it to - but I also think she has a lot of interesting things to say about many diverse subjects such as health care, speculative media (SF/F, genre fiction), women's experience in the military - lots and lots of stuff.
I'd say this on her blog, if she'd let me comment, which she won't, because as a "cheerleader of patriarchy" I am simply not welcome 'round her way, no matter what I say. If I disagree on some point or other I'm read as a troll (or worse) - but if I actually agree on some point or other I'm read as trying to ingratiate or infiltrate or flat-out deceive.
And, you know, I've had my fill of trying to force my way in where I'm not wanted. So, I don't even try to comment anymore. In fact, I probably shouldn't oughta even read. My patriarchal gaze, I'm sure, just burns.
but you know, if I let that kind of crap bother me, and avoid reading people I tend to (respectfully) disagree with, I miss really important questions that should be considered, like this one here:
"If you can't be nice to women without feeling twitchy and nervous and scared and guilty because OMG the men, then dammit, ask yourself why--and answer honestly."
Ginmar, A View From A Broad, Tuesday, January 9, 2007
Way down deep, buried under all the invective and hyperbole and so forth, it is possible to extract a really meaningful and important point of discussion. See?
So let's discuss. Let's not allow it to get lost.
I can't speak for anyone else, but I can honestly say that, in being nice to women, I don't feel twitchy-nervous-scared-and-guilty because of men. I feel twitchy-nervous-scared-and-guilty because women make me feel twitchy-nervous-scared-and-guilty. Women, in general, have not been nice to me. Women, in general, have been just as happy to fuck my shit up as men. Cruelty does not discriminate.
And when someone like Laura (Laura! of all people!)is accused by women of being cruel to a woman in the service of being kind to men, and not given much of a chance to defend herself, that strikes me as a really good reason to be twitchy-nervous-scared-and-guilty around women in future.
and what of kindness to men? do we all (all us dirty undesirables, however you may group us) suck patriarchal dick because of fear of men, fear that obliterates our love of women?
I really don't think so. Some of us are not kind to our brothers because we hate women or fear men. I don't think any of us say "hey, men are people" in order to separate ourselves from the herd of Class Woman, or curry favor and privilege with men - at least not consciously. Some of us, in saying "hey, men are people", are struggling desperately to somehow put together cohesive theory of liberation for all humankind, that doesn't have our heads exploding from the cognitive dissonance, that doesn't simply play Opposites Day with the world.
I'm not explaining myself well. this is really clumsy and not well thought out. But I'm not so sorry. I'll just keep trying until I get it.
Bear in mind that the same force that drives me to search for the common spark of humanity in man and in monster also drives me to search for the common spark of humanity in you, Ginmar, and in you, Stormcloud, and in you, Bea - even though we disagree, sometimes strongly.
I see a really unsettling precedent being set in the blogosphere - that it's only safe to comment in places where you agree 100% with what the blogger is putting forth. Consider what will happen in two months, in six months, in a year - eventually nobody's commonly-held myths will be challenged, nobody will be disabused of their preconceived notions - all of our emperors will run naked in the streets as all learning and growth comes to a screeching halt.
*nodding head* I have personally had more trouble with women in my life than men and I don't deny that in the slightest. But while it's been my experience that women can be vicious and cruel, it is generally the men that are the truly violent ones.
"and what of kindness to men? do we all (all us dirty undesirables, however you may group us) suck patriarchal dick because of fear of men, fear that obliterates our love of women?"
Oh, no, I suck cock because I like it.
sez g-m-r: "if you can't be nice to women"
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAaaa... gasp wheeze choke oh sweet jeezus.
sure thing, g-m-r. nice like this, for example? nice like you're being to/about Laura right now?
i feel the luv, i feel the luv...
uhhh, actually, i clean forgot.
"pull my finger." close enough.
capsule, i guess:
1) one certainly can trace womens' inhumanity to women back to hegemonic sexism (patriarchy, if you like), but it still doesn't get women off the hook for gratuitous cruelty, unconsciousness, abuse, "kick the dog" syndrome, any more than it does the men, who after all could just as easily be looked at as victims of circumstance, cogs in the great System, etc. etc.
2) it is true that men are much more prone to -physical- violence than women, on the whole (chalk it up to nature or nurture or both; for purposes here it doesn't much matter, perhaps), especially at the level where it can seriously injure or kill; that doesn't mean that -non-physical violence can't be just as brutal sometimes.
the term "soul murder" comes to mind.
It's a shame, because she does write well, but I won't be linking to her anymore.
and: more projection than the bloody Sundance Festival. it's very tiring.
"Women, in general, have not been nice to me. Women, in general, have been just as happy to fuck my shit up as men. Cruelty does not discriminate."
A yep. Here I am with the nodding in agreement. I was going to post something along these lines, but instead, I think I just might link here if thats okay with you. Pretty much any abuse I've taken in life, emotional, mental, physical, whatever, has come at the hands of a female. It would be real easy for me to, oh, you know, HATE women for it...but seeing as I also know some damn cool women, in the end I guess it all evens out, you know?
This is ridiculous. The basic argument reads a whole hell of a lot like "You're so intolerant of my intolerance! You're bigoted against bigots and that proves that you can't tell ME to be tolerant!"
And, you know, what? FUCK THAT.
I don't give a shit what your gender is, I'm not gonna applaud anyone for HATING 50% of humanity--even if it's the male half. I'm not going to applaud anyone for homophobia and transphobia. I'm not going to applaud Ginmar or Bea or Stormcloud or anyone else that argues that I have to sympathize and applaud folks that think that advocate murder and mutilation and violence as legitimate forms activism based on righteous anger, in order to be a "good feminist." Likewise, anyone else that thinks that Queer activism is "diluting" feminism can KISS MY ASS.
I may not be a RADICAL feminist. And, I may not by RADICAL enough for who-the-fuck ever. But, I am very RADICAL in thinking that every human being regardless of gender identity deserves a fair shake on individual terms, and that every human being regardless of gender identity deserves the right to be free from threats of violence and threats to their own basic bodily integrity. And, again, anyone defending blanket statements meant to dehumanize ANY group and effectively turn a “Them” into an “Enemy,” be it women, homosexuals, Muslims, people that wear feather boas, motorcycle enthusiasts, or, yes, men, can KISS MY ASS.
And, I DON’T GIVE A FUCK if that makes me a bad feminist according to a clique of women who seem to mostly be working really hard to out one-up each other in terms of how far they can push the boundaries of “acceptable” discourse.
yeah - what's that about?
yeah, that was wossname, right? charlie or something. seriously: it's enough. go play wendy-house wherever you like; just leave the rest of us out of it, kindly, thankee.
"I see a really unsettling precedent being set in the blogosphere - that it's only safe to comment in places where you agree 100% with what the blogger is putting forth.
Consider what will happen in two months, in six months, in a year - eventually nobody's commonly-held myths will be challenged, nobody will be disabused of their preconceived notions "
I don't see that at all - I still see debate in the feminist world. What we, as women, don't seem to be able to "challenge", what "commonly-held myths" we don't seem to be able to address, and the "preconceived notions" that we do not seem to "disabuse" are the ones which men hold about women, and reinforce with the infinity out there known as porn, which is becoming more and more violent, sick and depraved against women day by day - it tells lies about women and we are silenced by that, not by a few blogs - get real.
Don't give me this 'the men make us do it' crap.
Who are the Popular Girls? The pretty ones, with money, breasts, connections in the community. The girls they stomped were...the science geeks, the ones with homemade or second-hand clothes. (Humiliation? wear a shirt to school you got from goodwill, that is recognized as a cast-off from one of the Popular Girls)
This is kind of how the division throughout all these blogs reads to me. There's the A-List, who, due to criticism from the outside, is closing ranks and putting up their force field. There are the folks on the outside, some who want desperately to be In, and keeps trying to poke holes in the force field by toadying up to the A-list. There's the folks on the outside who make fun of the A-List, because they love to call people out on inconsistancies- that's like...the B-List, the girls in High School who will turn into something cerebral when they grow up. And there's the...oh, I don't know...J or K list, who sit back with a bowl of popcorn and wacth the proceedngs. (That would be me, I'm so far down the alphabet I'm probably the only one on my list)
These positions are all fabrications, no one is on a list that doesn't want to be there, and it's obvious that many people are happy where they are. But when I see someone throw a temper tantrum, close their blog to outsiders, and grumble all sorts of imprecations about people they refuse to know because the people won't fall at their feet and tell them how right they are, I shake my head and wonder if their name is Kathy, or Dawn, or Charlene.
Poke fun at them, they hate that. I won't do it because I don't want them to find my blog and do whatever with it. (Like they would anyway, I am not even a speck on their radar, Thank You Lord)But I have to say. thanks for the show, y'all!
(alright I know I have a thing of popcorn cheese somewhere...)
thanks for commenting, anon. by doing that, you give me a little hope for the future. thanks for keeping the dialogue alive.
however, silenced is silenced. I don't feel nearly as disenfranchised by most dirty pictures as I do by many in the blogosphere.
and how I feel matters as much as how any woman feels.
but it's okay if you feel differently. we have to talk about it, not scream insults at each other and shut each other out.
I think there is a balance between remaining open to the possibility of someone who's rejected the past 999 overtures of engagement decides to thaw a little and meet one part of the way, finally (and respond accordingly), and trying, for the 1000th time, to engage with that same individual when there is absolutely no current indication that -this- time will go any differently from the last 999. That, I've realized, after having done such things, is actually then -my- stuff; unresolved stuff, I think, trying to work out with a stranger.
for practical and political and growth purposes, these days i prefer as much as possible to focus the bulk of my energy on people who have demonstrated a capacity for reciprocity. Again, since actually I find that -most- people do at least some of the time, I am content with it.
except when I see people (usually those few people who are no tresponsive to reason or empathy) being irredeemable fuckwits and hurting people I care about in the process.
Sure it is, Christ was always trying to get the In Crowd (Pharisees) to spend more time hanging with the freaks, and was constantly calling them out on their hypocrisy.
Maybe it's time I reined in my pissiness in at Ginmar, Twisty, etc?
When I was a nicer feminist, my comments were allowed everywhere and I was *generally* treated with respect, at least where I commented frequently (not at Twisty's but whatever.)
I'm not sure I would receive the same treatment today.
I would hate for this to happen: "I see a really unsettling precedent being set in the blogosphere - that it's only safe to comment in places where you agree 100% with what the blogger is putting forth."
And, you know what? Fuck nice. I'm sure there's a place for it, but me, I'm for kicking ass and taking names. If that's what it takes, then so be motherfuckin' it.
and, personally, I wouldn't want to be a member of a club that -wouldn't- have me as a member, anyway. Particularly if it's like, "okay, you're nice, but your friends Aren't Like Us; they can't come in, we understand."
unsane: it is not in fact a battle of ideological differences; this is a question of some people being utter, utter fucksticks, and everyone else trying to figure out how to deal with it.
but, no. Of ALL the things she could respond to, she has to zero in on a beautiful, self-affirming post of someone else, a post that had -nothing to do with her- (which is why she's so upset in the first place), and do her pissy best to try to squash it. Yeah, of course she's pulling "help help we're being oppressed; this is an act of defense." That's what bullies ALWAYS do. Who's gonna cop to "I just can't stand that I can't control this"? Not she. Not most people. But that doesn't mean that's not what's happening.
So, no, I don't give a fuck about being nice to people when they're gonna be like that. When they kick sideways or down, and claim they're being oppressed, and doing it because they Really Care; when they try to put out someone else's light because they just couldn't see that it didn't threaten theirs in the damn first place. Fuck that noise. and fuck her.
I don't think (some) feminists are telling lies any more egregious than the lies (some) men tell.
if something specific is on your mind, please feel free to elaborate.
just a hunch; not that the actual MRA's aren't at least as lame, but i've yet to see one put a Ken doll in the avatar instead of, like, you know, an actual mighty mighty muscle man.
either way: i am Shocked and Awed by the wit there. really.
of course, it is really unfair, isn't it, this automatic leap to conclusions that some lame troll must needs be -the same person- as some other lame troll.
and, you're really a pigeon, too, aren't you.
I know you and Belle have a rather painful history, which is really none of my business.
unfortunately I don't know the particulars so I'm not completely sure I get what you're saying. I followed that link to agilebrit's LJ and still don't really get it.
You have these war experiences that no civilian will ever understand, nor should we even pretend to. Maybe it's when you see people pretending to "get it", or deluding themselves into thinking they "get it", that gets you so angry.
that's a good reason to get angry. I can't find fault in that.
However, I didn't write this post to pick a fight with you, Ginmar. you got a problem with Belle - take it outside. maybe she'll engage with you, maybe she won't. but it's not my business either way.
per the point I think you were trying to make: I'm put in mind of the phrase "a strong condemnation of DDT is not a ringing endorsement of the malaria mosquito."
ginmarie at gmail dot com
Not wanting a fight doesn't matter. If you're on the wrong side, it does. If you're aware that there's a painful history that consists of BD telling only one side of the story ad nauseum, then how come you don't make more effort? BD's been bitching about that for ages. I don't notice her talking about how I just got out of the hospital after a month. Nor do I notice her mentioning any of the trouble I've had for the past two years, because the things in Iraq have been tearing me apart. And you? Where are you? I dare you. Take a stand. Have an opinion. Make up your damned mind.
Are you okay with that?
Here you go:
She cites it in the very post that BD cites. Which F_W ignores. Happy now?